Thu, 12 Aug 2010|
Automatically Generated Transcript (may not be 100% accurate)
Good morning everyone. And welcome to -- and and yet. We're celebrating our tenth and numbers and we're delighted to have you here and it spurred -- mark. So -- years ago in the ballroom of -- Chicago area hotel. Last year's it was -- -- each week as ranking among the fastest growing -- -- Louis Charlotte Louisville Cincinnati Milwaukee and Columbus. It will be in Columbus and we'll look forward -- all news there as well. On top of well I'd like to thank following colds and sponsors include -- global of the holders. Robert Draper high scoring -- Bergman is -- -- -- -- delicate balances. And I'll -- and Nikko. And and elect him in conference manager and her effort to coordinate and editors -- -- program. And special recognition. Is due to -- and conference planning committee who put -- program you'll be going over the next several days. An out standing committee made up of leaders from across the industry elected take a minute and ask any of the committee members who were present to please stand up and be recognized. For the work you've done in putting together. It's been a few years -- words stranded investment. Has been uttered the last time I think was during the tumultuous days deregulation. When utilities were compelled to divesting moth ball and even -- generating assets. Now the term is re emerging this time in the contact of environmental rules. Through -- the American public power association's. Top environmental expert. Brief session at the association's. Annual conference in Orlando and June. And that he expects the coal fired sector to the near constant retro -- between 2012 and -- -- teeing. Competition for -- engineering and construction services and equipment. Large numbers of unit retirements. Possible short -- in reserve margin requirements. An increase in natural gas generation and a chance that financed her horses could be met delegated and investments left stranded. Barkley report earlier this year just at that point seven -- a lot of coal fired generating capacity could shot by two fourteen. Early in the generation gap would likely be natural gas while -- on the industry. Believe the EPA favors. Natural gas due to a lighter carbon footprint. The -- to switch to natural gas in the US could amount to 355. Billion dollars in new combined -- 348. Billion new natural gas pipeline and twelve billion. Reduce natural gas gas storage facilities. Forty billion dollars for -- gas gathering abilities and eight billion dollars for training and management. Political gridlock on Capitol Hill likely means that the EPA and will take the lead in regulating carbon emissions. Through the Clean Air Act. Political watchers noted last year the difficulty of passing any sort of meaningful energy your climate change legislation after like -- Given the runup to November mid term elections. Even after the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. Congress has remained unable to move on to -- One reader of power engineering magazine wrote this in the letter to editors being published in our -- It is -- the severity of the regulations currently in the fact. But the certainty of the direction of future regulations that is paralyzed our -- And Mike -- Yields American Electric Power took part in the whole executive roundtable cuts and that will be published in the September -- our engineering during that round table he made the following comments. It is clear that this administration is on a path removed coal fired electricity and -- and wine country. Many of the larger -- have already been retrofitted -- the Clean Air Act. We will continue as will others to and a capital required to bring them up -- whatever standards can come up where. But in the process companies like ours will probably shut down ten to fifteen. To 20% of our existing coal -- because these rules are simply not accomplish double. At a price point that would make. And in -- -- second letter to EPA administrator Lisa Jackson. Attorney general Greg Abbott chairman of the tech commission on environmental quality. Brian. Shaw wrote. On behalf of the tech we -- right for me that tech has neither the authority nor the intention. Interpreting ignoring or amending laws in order to compel the permitting of greenhouse gas emissions. All that in play the -- conference planning committee. Ended invitations both of the EPA and the deal to come address -- -- morning. To discuss regulation and -- -- Pollack were cool fight. And our speaker this morning -- at Wharton deputy. Secretary -- -- off of fossil. Fossil Energy. Department. Mr. -- managers and directly ought to clean people are and development programs. Chief among these is the carbon sequestration program clean power initiative and the 3.4 billion dollar portfolio of Recovery Act projects. Or joining -- -- he was president and CEO Babcock Power. From 1992001. He was president of pep -- and Wilcox. At all -- was executive vice president of McDermott International at the time the parent of BMW. Earlier in history here is president of WTO national and managing director of we liberators environmental. -- He pointed to national coal council -- three administrations. And is an answer and ELO and pro -- -- in university. He holds a BS in chemical engineering from Clarkson and in -- with a focus on international economics and please join me welcoming would. -- but I didn't think you're going to be a -- them. So things. Things look that bad news. So I'll be here and in -- in ten minutes or so I'll try and and and changed the attitude of of what the future might look like. But -- it's -- true that if coal based. Generation is going to. Day as base load. In the United States the technologies that will need to be put in place war. -- and -- CO2 carbon capture and sequestration. Will have to be technologies that are. Competitive. Both in capital costs and operating cost. -- I'd like to at least talk a little bit about what what -- is is trying to do. To stimulate that kind of work in -- in the Q&A session that follows we'll have. Some other discussions that may be more relevant to what you -- interest and but I wanted to recap of it and and talk about that -- the PI portfolio of projects that. The DOE's head -- had some influence and in is Shiite PE round one there were eight projects that were selected. And three are completed. So. And out of bed almost -- deeper and almost 50% win rate. In terms of developing and sponsoring and deploying new technologies. In EC PI round two. Four projects were elected and three are in active. Or or active or completed at this time. In -- NC CPI round three we've selected. It projects in five or active and -- -- talk about but those and tonight via the industrial. Carbon capture and sequestration. We have three projects that -- elected and three projects are actively. Developing right now. And so just just to talk a little bit about the the project under PI round three -- -- mention one. In California which is a two point eight billion dollar. IGE -- sponsored by hydrogen energy in California. We have a 308 million dollar grant commitment to to them. It will be in baker field. Is going to be having Barbara and cold when I've -- pet goat. And they are looking to. Captured ninety per cent. The video to -- -- deal -- That project is due to be up and running and point team though. First generation or maybe second generation. Get occasion. Leading to carbon capture being used for Yale -- are. Economics look okay. They're developing the project going through -- and doing their contracts and so forth. That should be helpful depending on what happens with with with -- -- The -- projects. A project sponsored by venture capitalist. It is an idea one point seven billion dollar project. In and and -- tech. 300 million dollar commitment grant commitment on the part of the only on that project. That and -- project which is going to use what leadership reactor. And or is is making a commitment to do that -- -- -- They're doing the they're doing the engineering. That project to posting up and running at 2014. Oh near enough for years from now. They're gonna capture three million tons a year -- -- -- all out to be used and in enhanced oil recovery in the Permian. -- we have to project one of her many of you know about which is the one at thirteen megawatt. The only thirty. 35 megawatt. The screen on that from that -- to use the -- it means to them that out on matters. War capturing you too so we'll get we'll get some data from operating experience there they're -- inject you too. In and that the well on property which they have. Experience and doing will be able to see what happens with little will be at the -- and integrate. Carbon capture -- generation and fairly large unit. And have some of these numbers and economic take a look at in terms of -- there. And the last one is -- -- project which we -- recently awarded which will be down and in Texas today we'll have that up and running about 2014. And they're gonna capture about 1000. Years it went like they're gonna use that for yours well. So in terms of the portfolio of demonstration project you can see that. Heavily weighted towards I -- for new and heavily weighted toward packet capture and clean up for old. And we'll have something by mid but amid the -- In terms of reckoning economics and operating. -- that that's the demonstrations side and then there's 400 million dollar are indeed. More low budget every year which is going to look at the development of orphans. Solvents. Looking it it compression technologies. Looking at membranes -- separation of you to remembrance for separation of oxygen. From air in ways that would reduce the the penalty that we now see which is -- an -- exposed 2530%. In part -- the load in order to make -- for an end and back and technologies much more attractive from late littlest of -- point of view. The that thing that we're doing which is not much art and -- -- is we have created. A pretty sophisticated model. Where we are able to do what -- on different and the one we picked to initiate. -- hundred. And what it will allow us to do in the office is -- different this -- today. From the RD programs and do what is and what -- it is. Is something and -- backers in a -- And isn't going back even with the -- Think about or -- money -- actually right down. The the long term -- electorate. At the end of the day we are sponsoring projects monitoring technology. That is. Going to lead to a lower cost of electric. And the consulate. Is low enough where -- projects. And plants we have dispatched. On a curve that only allowed in the hours payback -- -- -- I'm sensitive to not only regulate utilities and Mike has spoken about what you -- -- -- all of the in the hour. Who won't have the opportunity go back to a commission. Analogue like PS ankle in. The back -- it back to. The only -- look we retrofit -- clean coal unit. Can we get greatly because caught fire. Most of the IPPs and -- which is here and a half -- -- and you. And probably when are the cool -- and don't have the ability to -- So -- one of my rules to try and make sure that -- deal is looking to sponsor. Technology we're looking to it -- technology's way. That is good -- much industrials -- regulate those -- PP. In that regard I want I would do want to make an opening statement at Notre Dame have a request about it about future. We looked long -- That was when -- looked -- from the beginning -- the time I went with a view which was back for years. Until -- made on Thursday. To do what a lot of people are are great and a lot of people. But I think it's a really good vision -- Public money. And that was too. A couple of repowering. -- -- -- station. With our combined with the tune in rupture and -- -- that we have information. In order to do a couple of things. One -- combine and currently I understand it has promised in terms what -- can. And it has promised that we ought to at least have an artful that was a piece of that. Secondly -- combine is something that looked like retrofit double but it -- powerful. And -- -- is. The author of clean coal. I'm concerned about the ability. The lead to be able to retrofit. Or -- power on whatever standards in the coming out of the EPA. With respect -- -- with respect to. Combustion at least on Paper looks like it might it might our opportunity to record that. An act to report -- the smaller. We we talk about -- hundred to 250 megawatt. -- -- -- power plant. Our complexion at least the numbers aren't that -- to be sitting where you're being competitive which we didn't have war. And above -- to the enemy like -- maybe actually play to. Either as a retrofit or in the case of potentially new plan. Playing a role there. So for those reasons. A week we decided that look. We have the two on -- and he projects sponsoring we have campers in the -- -- which is part of of Fossil Energy but camp alone which it and that is going forward trying to develop their project which it -- -- project to it was work. We have -- and operation we have -- -- operation. Why do we need -- -- is the only -- and -- and project we need to report that made. And -- questions but. You know was that they. And those of -- prepared more and I thank you that your. The question. Because morning is doctor Robert -- Leader of the energy strategies -- for the US environmental protection agency's office of air quality planning -- standards. Doctor Whelan has over twenty years of experience and air quality programs including experience with EPA's ozone and particulate matter. And air toxic programs. He also was senior scientist with -- Science Applications International Corp. environmental. Science and engineering division. In his current causes him. Doctor -- managers -- development of deregulation. For industrial and utility combustion sources which are regulated under sections 111112. And one when he not a Clean Air Act. Currently he is involved in the -- -- development of a multi pollutant emissions and mission strategy for the utilities -- Additionally he is involved in the -- -- legislative effort. -- multi pollutant controls which is Rupert who is the clean guys act legislation. Doctor -- he is BA and -- -- an environmental sciences from the University of Virginia and he would -- -- man and spirit sciences from North Carolina. That universities. Please join me in welcoming doctor Robert -- Good morning. It's a pleasure to be here this morning and a -- likely we'll leave you with. More if not and many more questions -- you had when you came in this room. I'm gonna try to give you a picture -- the next five to ten years the eight -- looked at air quality management and -- focus these task. On the coal fired generation sector. Briefly I'm an overview the national ambient air quality standards -- of the backbone of the regulations for the -- and either designed to protect public health and the environment. And we'll talk about how these will change over the next five to ten years. I'm gonna -- specifically -- -- the upcoming power plant regulations. Many of you aware that that on to the care court remand was -- it about a month ago we were part of that now is the transport rule we'll talk briefly about that. Topic I know that everyone has an interest in the upcoming utility Mac which is court ordered -- march of 2011. We'll talk about that and how that potentially integrates into this. There are a few action's coming out of the quarter profit which are not directly on in my purview but they do impact the -- parts sector. Is well. Another act coming out of the -- solidly which is a coal combustion -- regulation. On a similar timeframe we are in the process of responding to a court remand. Apart the day which is -- in -- PS for electric generating units. This peace will typically deal with knocks him at 2 PM and we'll talk briefly about how that factors into all this. Right now we're working on five different national. And quality standards the penalties and it will put out in January of this year we just recently finalized yesterday to enact in and which still on schedule to get the -- the ozone Rican -- out later this month. And then coming up an early 2011 we have -- -- and the PM. And acts coming forward. If you look at each of these five standards you know power -- play an integral part in -- of these. They're either pretty -- emitting precursors for -- -- their emitting particulate matter they obviously admit that if from the coal that income busted. Any type of snacks approach at the -- he's looking at involved -- -- power sector which time to look realistically. At these as well the Mac regulations in the transport -- As we move forward. There's a lot of detail only slides I'm not gonna go through -- I told David I wanted to provided -- you had a complete timeline in your packets. But essentially the change and it nitrogen -- that -- -- we -- a don't want are not entered. A hundred parts per billion in the revisions that we did earlier this year that a change from what was previously out there. And if you look at the timeline there on the right side of the table. You see the implementation in -- compliance with this stretches out almost twelve years. These are things that are going to be coming in the placed over the next ten to twelve years that need to be part of your planning. And the agent he's trying to take that into account. -- -- we roll out these different regulations. When we look at the F to -- a similar thing will play out somewhere between now and in July 2017. With the attainment day. And again. The transport rule is linked to the utility Mac will be linked to this and there other state based regulation that helped implement these provisions. -- as you're doing your planning if you're looking at the older unit thinking about whether to retire him thinking about whether to re -- them as Jim talked about. These are the regulations that need to be aware of -- thankful. In terms of the ozone which we should have this out -- the month. Basically -- -- the big difference there was. We gonna add the secondary standard that was proposed back in January. We got a lot of comment on that and the way goes on the tank -- you can he's -- almost twenty years with England they reached. That depends on whether -- moderate or severe in terms of -- on non attainment and how to get implemented over the next twenty years. So here's another layer of regulations. To be factored. And planning. When you turn the -- to the power sector. There's a litany of regulations that have either occurred or in the pipeline to come out over the next nine to twelve months. This started back in March 20 -- with the response of the Johnson memo back. We followed it up in May with the the greenhouse gas tailoring rule which kicked in in January 2011. Just last month we put out the transport rule which was the agency's response to the court case. The next thing on the horizon is march 2011 when -- finalized the proposal. With the edu and PS for criteria. That will be linked with the utility Mac which will be designed. To cover toxic air pollution from the -- Later in the spring we will finalize -- transport rule. And in in November will finalized by the and a PS as well utility. Oh and about fourteen month the major pieces of the power plant regulations. Are going to be out. And be implemented. But we'll talk about a little bit later when we talk about the Mac one of the key leaders how to integrate all of these and how -- would provide sufficient -- to do the retrofit and ask Eric. To comply with these -- In the transport rule is not a lot different than what was in care but we did deal with the the visions that came in from the court. -- -- 31 day Washington DC the Green Day that you see there are subject to both fine particle and ozone standards. That blue day -- -- fine particles only the yellow states -- goes on only and of course the white -- are not covered about a transport rule. That's because in order to implement the transport -- we deal on the calls that we call significant contribution. When contribution. And we could only make those determinations in the eastern half of the country. And basically what transport rule does is it at him and budget to each of those 31 days. The Washington DC area. The main thing we had to deal with in the transport rule was making sure that we dealt with the court in 2000 -- And agent he believes that we have done that. The beauty of this is there is a beauty side of it is because it was a re man their original care provisions remained in place while we worked on the transport rule. So a lot of equipment that needed to be all the garbage and the -- the arts and easy and -- Was already purchase an already installed a lot of it was already operating so we were able to get some of the reductions from care that we had to go back and fix -- and as the last bullet that's how people gonna meet how -- we anticipate that the power sector will meet these new rules. A lot of going to be operating equipment that party -- all in our all of it may have to be operated more frequently like -- -- controls and videos on these. Some people will switch to -- -- by lower sulfur coal. And a lot of people have install technology such as -- -- -- and yards. Along with -- -- all of these things. Part of the original -- ruled that just going to be a little bit different now part of the world. Here we basically have a preferred approach and we propose to alternatives. To take comment on -- the comment period is currently open for this rule. The for -- approached. Does allow intrastate trading with limited interstate -- and that's a significant change from what was originally finalized in the care. And then we have to alternatives where trading is allowed only among power plants within a given -- And and we have a second alternative where we allow that trading within a state and we allow for them averaging among plants in a given day. These are two options were taking comment on. And as the comic here comes to a close will make a final edition on what to move forward for the final -- for next year and 2011. Another thing we're doing is we're proposing fifth of federal implementation plans. These are designed to ensure that the reductions are -- and -- -- -- -- up with its own -- implementation plan that the agency can approve. And obviously -- -- -- once approved by EPA was a seat the federal. -- -- -- -- when they'd obligations to reduce -- and significantly contributing to downwind monitoring and -- and these are based on three factors which is basically the magnitude of thanks contribution. The cost of controlling that pollution and air quality impact of the reduction and again. The significant contribution aspect is what limit the transport rule to that part of the day. When you -- -- you step back and you think about the task before the agent we've got -- yes we have a transport rule we have utility Mac. How are we going to kind of greatness and take into account the different passes that are subject to regulation. We're keenly aware of what David -- -- stranded at that we do not want to rent a lot of bad -- and waste a lot of capital. In these endeavors. The key component we've identified and -- on this slide that basically three. The first -- -- energy if they are reducing energy demand. -- an efficiency we can lower all emissions if we burn less fuel and total. That we emit less emissions overall energy if it -- is key component of our integrating strategy. Timing matters. The things have to be -- we don't want to implement a regulation happened trolls and salt. And in -- -- 1824 months later we come back with a different regulation. That would cause you to rip out what you just saw the timing matters we have to come up. With the way that it positively affect investment and -- movement in the right direction. And as always with these -- regulations which trying to hang significant health and environmental benefit that's the ultimate goal is protect public health. In the welfare of the environment. As part of an integrated strategy we want to transition of power sector to a clean energy economy. And in this clean energy economy we have basically -- point that we that we striving to accomplish as we move forward. If you gonna build a new plant in the united today it's going to be clean and it's going to be energy if -- -- you say that the -- control. And I have state of the art if they need to support it. We're gonna you state of the art air pollution controls and we're gonna push the -- -- -- that we burn less fuel to generate less overall emissions. We want to help you was -- and then -- stakeholders to make the proper investment. We -- to give you the regulatory nature of the regulatory pathway now that you can understand where you need to be. 20152020. Point point and by doing that you can make around this season and moving forward. And then -- increase in energy efficiency and -- -- on the demand side. We can help reduce the call of regulations for you and the ultimate -- electric and natural gas and other things on the American an hour. -- this is our vision to transition to a clean energy economy. One of the big. Rules that being worked on out of my office right now is the maximum achievable control technology standards for the utility Mac. And that is a key component within their overall integrated strategy for the agency. And we talked about the -- with part of it again as PS will be part of it. And the office of water and off a solid waste regulations will also have to be woven into this. Each of -- he carries it on call each of these. The goal we're trying to accomplish years to demonstrate -- and to make them as seamless as possible. There is no doubt that the utility Mac is going to be a major financial driver for the power sector. It's gonna prompt utilities to think long and hard about whether you continue to run -- plan. What you retrofit it what do you do something -- or shut it down. And we wanna prompt those investments but we want to prompt them and a very. Smart and intelligent like -- for. In addition the utility Mac has some very strict legal and the time that you're allowed to comply with Mac. And the way that you have to comply with Mac. Does not have that flexibility. -- took to a large extent that we'll talk briefly about that. I'm not gonna do well on this that history that are provided for you but essentially. We started trying to regulate coal fired power plant in early 1990s to mid 1990. It led to a report to congress in 1998. We had a major information collection request in 1999. And then we made a -- 2000 that it was appropriate and -- -- to regulate coal coal fired power plants. We -- -- in 2005 with a clean air Mercury rule which was challenged in court the agent -- the rule was vacated. And thus we will put back into action won twelve to develop maximum achievable control technology standards and part of that settlement agreement. We have a court order to proposed by mark it in the 2011. And the rule will be finalized on or before November extinct -- -- -- is a very rigorous schedule. That we're operating on. When I talked about the legal process the most important thing to take away from this side. Is Mac deals with -- type -- if you're an existing or out there or march 16 2011 -- this -- proposed. Your mission limitations -- -- based on the best performing 12%. -- we would take. The information we're receiving now -- any historical information we would rank that. And look at the clean well for that and we will item limit and that is what all existing old -- -- -- our plants. We'll have to me. If you put a double on the ground how's this for -- -- march 2011. You'll be subject of the news or. -- That means will be subject to meeting the on the level of the single best performing or out there and march of 2011. -- a two different things and here. The Mac standard unlike the transport rule unlike Vietnam. Cleaner -- rule will be a source Pacific standard there will be no trading. Among plants -- -- -- it will be terrific. On unit by unit. Who's affected by this as you can see roughly 50% of our generation comes from coal. There's another large sector that come from natural gas as well as a whole and then -- some renewable. But -- steal the base load generation king in the united -- And as we move forward we would -- sure that all of these fuels remain viable for generating power. And generating cost effective electricity in the country. All of the decision points we're coming to. When it comes to the Mac -- we'll have to be -- up the administration as we move forward. In setting the standards I can assure you we will adhere strictly to the vision of the there are other do it in the -- Mac is an income recycling coalition -- agent. There are other the citizens that have come down in the last five years from the the market that will impact this and we will adhere to those nations. To the degree. We're going to have to figure out how to deal with variability. We take -- test of the coal plant. And you get 31 hour -- That may not be representative of how the plants operate in March at the numbers that we have to figure out how we're -- -- deal with their ability. And then we have to considerably on the floor the act requires that numerical limits -- -- But -- -- cost effective -- W on those limits imposed even more control. -- categorization will be the issue that's of discretionary authority that's and the act. That allow us to split up the whole art utilities sector and the multiple sets of categories. At different emission limit for each of those that can. Right now we're following the paradigm that was recently proposed in the industrial boiler -- standards. We're gonna have to address all -- but we intend to do it but adding five target limit. We will -- -- Mercury standards particulate matter standard and AL standard or -- again standard. And then we'll deal with total hydrocarbon. And -- and your hands -- the non organic half. This is what we did an industrial -- Mac we're waiting for that comment -- -- close on the 23 of -- And seeing no adverse comments at that time and we might not detectives -- -- -- right now we're waiting on the comment -- to close. The reason we wanna use the problem is -- -- call and reduce burden. But give -- the coverage that we are covering all the -- we targeting the reduction that the regulations designed to see. We needed -- I told you we had an information collection requests in 1999. That data now ten years old -- we went out earlier this year was like an eighty million dollar infamous collection request for the coal fired utility sector. That data is coming and now we've had some delays with lab testing and things like that. But that data is coming in and it will allow us to look -- up hacker's -- and it would allow us to look at the best performance well for that it will allow us to determine what the best performing in both the ability is out there. All of this information will be compiled and used to generate the proposal that will come out in march of 2011. On the -- -- side we took a re man on this right after the clean air interstate rule was litigated. A lot of the information that -- into the -- -- at 2 -- 2.5 standards were linked to those regulations. We've taken -- remand on a voluntary re mammal that -- reluctant these numbers. And to integrate this with the utility Mac we're going to be proposing and finalizing these things get they'll they'll be linked together. And with that I will stop and we'll take questions later -- thanks. And as you mentioned the lines -- available via cold and -- Producer and no power. Available -- you can look at them as well but in public. To look at them. You'll notice that there's a third up on -- -- and it. The reason for that you can. Lead -- tenured professors to the podium came in there. So our our final speaker today. Is to implement. Their social life is at Penn State universe it. Doctor Clement is a senior member of the graduate faculty and former director of these environmental policy under his -- -- virtualization in the new economic impact of energy -- and especially families minorities in this community. He published more than 100 articles and related media. Researchers and funded by the National Science Foundation -- Rockefeller -- and in the Ford Foundation. He holds a doctorate in demography from the university of you and your class of 2008 voted in the best professor at and we mean welcoming doctor Clement it. -- Working. The plan. My explanation not being up here is that a lot of guys in this room not my my advice is get -- PSA test. -- -- -- If you don't have it yet. -- in my life. I -- classic Penn state farm. -- social problems he. Has about 12100 kids and it it. In two wait until now 416100. -- -- anyone make an expert teacher to week from today. Loudly into it and that you most senior. Class. -- -- -- get an idea what if you. I'm gonna talk about in on social problems. That drugs alcoholism -- and I -- But a lot of primary. Because I think energy major problems. There -- generations going after. Winning it because. They need to leave it -- -- in what they want to leave it in will be able to afford it and it sound like its first about the global perspective. A little bit about electricity where we -- it would get -- in the united. My first client. Is always no matter where I -- my. -- good. We forget about that. Night they were so used to having all the energy we walk. It's been reliable all of our lifetime. We forget the variety. With the impact on bodies they don't have -- but I did do had electricity. People survive childhood that's no small thing when different when one out of five babies -- -- were there five years old. They live long they drink cleaner water. The better food. And they learn to re. Because -- to rest of the world. That's what -- transmission line. The people the benefit -- mostly electricity comes to a village far. Or community and win. Women and children. Life changes that day today electricity shows up. We know this moreover. Experiences with rural electrification United States. So who made it impacted our rural electrification. Because the TV get. It how people's lives haven't changed and changed the moment electricity came to the point. But I don't have to read -- history can about the impact of electric. I -- what happened before Iberia. My wife and I can't be -- And for that were adopted from overseas -- places that don't have electric. And -- one of our boys came to us he was six years old. You can tell stories of Michael in the bathroom in a hole in the ground. Having no refrigeration. -- -- light -- no running water cooking in a little a little -- -- children -- When he joined our -- -- was six years old. He -- 35 -- Today twenty years later with the benefit. Of electricity and all I can bring. United States marine. Was to combat medals for bravery under fire. That's -- electricity. Can do to change one. In fact electricity is -- -- it. He electrician who work to change a lot of care. Everybody wants it. Few people in the room that have been around a block like me many times. Well when we grew up and we were getting out of college is actually demand around -- that little baby over there. And when our kids graduated from college it was -- a little bit more than that little cheerleader. There what -- -- kids graduate from college is going to be that John. That's the scale of electricity growth around the world. That's to me. That's the need for power. -- just to give you an idea what that the demand that do exist in the latent demand that's out there. -- scale global poverty. In energy deprivation that 2.5 billion people that live on less than two dollars a day. Two billion people have electricity. I'm relatively sporadic cases are inadequate act. And I don't have -- if you are a few days a week and my question too much use all the time. We have another one point five billion people that have no electricity at all. We don't have electricity it does mean if they do when your computer. -- -- No refrigeration. You -- like to read about -- everything you know much. That's what the world really looks like outside of its rule. And that -- I was -- used to get featured acts on what kind of happened rooms it looks like we're gonna. -- everything. Everywhere all the time. The -- with -- -- valves on included we need everything. That's -- -- -- between natural gas coal nuclear. We need all. We need power we need -- -- if we -- this whole issue. Poverty seriously and energy deprivation seriously we need it. -- -- -- -- -- -- By 2030. Got four billion people. Will get forty -- At least 40% of their electricity from coal always on the -- all around them. It makes them. Because. -- where the people -- If you look at -- we'll talk about -- energy secure fuel Coke cola was the epitome. A secure -- Very beautiful people up controls and loyal. That a little example control -- natural gas but 42%. People control. Fifty -- hole. Calls a secure if you want people. Are increasingly seen as well. The other value or -- telling. Not only could produce electricity from coal you can produce the fuel you can produce up to -- natural gas Petro chemical. Cold crucial to be -- making steel. Countries in -- loss feel like China -- -- a billion people to -- And they've built up not out. China understands -- issue. I spent a month in shock you I've heard a lot. In a talkative person who's ready the next five you're playing the energy component out. It gave him one -- and they're going to produce an additional one point two billion -- or. In one product -- suggest adding the united. It did when he converted all kinds of different things not just electricity but all these other. Products come from can be produced record thank you cannot get a permit to -- in Xinjiang province. And -- you have a cool conversion. -- -- In China has benefited from their use of cool. That red line. And you called him. The blue on blue bars are people taken out of poverty in those lighter -- are. Hundreds of millions of. It works -- -- to pull people out of poverty 85 per. Of all the people. Taken out of poverty in the last twenty years in the whole world are in China. 85. We're talking about partly Italian cup -- -- get my food in your head out to be he'd show up. You're talking about real poverty. Two dollar -- day -- -- people like to beat up China. -- New York Times. But what China's -- quick. They're -- some of the most efficient coal fired power plants in the world and they're taking a moment plants off line. They have a program called march substituting for -- They're putting in large. Hypocritical power plant. And they're retiring the ball -- -- part. Gonna make a difference in and of itself. Any -- Across. In a park in the world. Right now -- They're building -- all the time. -- -- -- -- original story look at the next chapter in the book. Here comes India what you know X seven years we'll have more people than. He needs coal energy to they won't get it. -- we sources are gonna import from Australia. -- has 400 million people have no electricity. 800. People to time population. They cope with Woodward -- -- -- -- It is -- -- that it can be protected by a minority tajiks trip. I have 900 million people have no refrigeration. Do you call gonna use coal based -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Virtually all. Pretty. It did in coming on there but even after all that even doing all these calls are placed on them and -- all of -- forward. -- still not enough. We need more. Right now we have one point five billion people that do not have electricity or gas watch in 2030. We're just gonna have one point three -- -- Why there was no real -- who everybody expect these gigantic agreement in Copenhagen that's why not right here. Why there's got to lying in -- which everybody should make sure they read the first priority. Of developing nation. Eradication of poverty. Not gonna get it even quote it. Without it. I think by the United States where we can get -- I think that is why. -- -- like the nuclear power plants. Electricity. Plant. -- -- -- -- -- -- What is your your electricity -- -- -- that top bar. It's in the bottom -- -- where you're gonna get it -- -- EIA in 2003 spot. You might say well sable table. -- still going to be a major contributor little -- -- not. Natural gas hanging around 88 nuclear dropping off a little bit. And wind will be more of an appointment with EIA counselors I don't know what's gonna happen nobody else -- Definitely I -- look like. In 25 years. Record -- in that. 3008. -- at least 25%. From coal to date with the yellow dot. If -- 45%. Cole is -- crucial part of our quality of life. All across the heart of this country. It will remain so. If we want -- That we can afford. Clean coal technology. Works. Don't know I think it's sprinkled -- others. Clean coal technology -- Take time. But certainly affordable. Which is more coal not that we did. -- that's regulating emissions. We can -- technology on our. That's -- -- a big challenge secretary -- had wanted to. Because challenges we face and go. He's right. In -- supposed to drop off a cliff according to policy by 2050. I you have -- -- everybody has an opinion when you're -- or whatever happens in the act of faith that the context is important. We're we're have a policy yet we're pursuing. That you -- we're gonna do. Drop -- Aqua blue line by 2050. At the same time. We increase the population by 150 million people. If you lived in this country in 1953. When we had about a 150 billion people. You know what it was like -- I was there. By the way you're also going to increase GDP by -- 170 -- You can have a debate all day and argue for weeks -- whether it is. -- -- -- -- -- Our policy in which are part. We know we're not gonna get into a couple of energy that -- that he got coal -- -- -- We can't about a hundred megawatt -- It would play and in many young approved and the need for power statements were signed by the public service commissions. So they need to power. It really. You know the problems of one generation. -- what's gonna happen next generation. Degeneration -- on -- And we weren't gonna build nuclear power plant. You know we don't have any real nuclear power -- industry becomes right now. I can't -- -- students at Penn State -- like they have nuclear power plants. I think we're gonna take anything with -- people is that what I didn't of those plants. We're paying a -- for electricity we don't have enough anyway. What are we doing. -- -- actually play. Everywhere. Couple years you'll -- 500 people lot of natural gas plant in the United States. Little more on the way. -- -- up here movement more toward natural gas. Even more natural gas plant Colorado -- we're gonna turn our core players in the natural. Other states to which is always going on in a big -- you. I was in -- he is giving a speech at an age they're they're expecting -- -- on their legislature on. -- in western open and natural gas up -- -- -- Now look at the life and -- 500. -- Watson now who knows how many are gonna be built in the next decade. And competitive it -- -- the next line. With the CIA else. Intellectual this and -- between. That Monica showed you and bill. These two -- -- -- totally incompatible. The EIA the energy information -- he what you're -- administration which tells the post knows what's gonna happen in future. Do you -- idea. Telling us that weren't our natural gas supply is gonna declined by more. A natural gas -- like crazy but our natural gas supplies -- decline. Who knows what's going to. You -- -- may or may not show up -- maybe four maybe five. The -- I don't know. We're pretty sure that conventional -- that read that's pretty much is written in stone because that's sort of a natural law. We know we're not we know we're giving it the -- when we get the -- or not. We just keep building -- name. Kinds of weight. Moving to fuel is going to show up. And we've done this before our way. That's why the capacity factor for natural after only about thirty. They get 90% -- -- we don't last ten years from natural gas. We -- natural gas and natural gas if you don't we're gonna get plenty of natural gas in 2000 -- it's gonna come from offshore no. Well that didn't -- 2000 pages aren't gonna become from conventional. -- show up. 200620072008. It Lydia LNG on the way. Guess what that it jalopy. -- as soon -- she'll guest will have coming -- our ears. Will. They're -- think that good. -- everything -- -- -- -- -- polls this year yes that's right. Questions -- -- -- -- I didn't really have any reader might work warrior Rush Limbaugh. There's no middle ground. But -- if we need -- We're counting on. In your resource out. No question. But -- big -- -- I'm watching the cars. We don't know. How much can be delivered in the kind of -- We know. Environmentally. We don't know and there. Light EPA is it would be right. No. -- idol it's 12100 people show up on an expert in 900 degree weather and -- it anyway. We felt like it. We went there to complain about the environmental impact -- -- -- that any national park what you require -- If you believe and that's why we had a big yet. 2050 then you have to support. Carbon capture for natural gas. Generally if you cannot get to act. Our goal. Using natural gas but. Can't -- -- -- with it who knows how much it's gonna car. Mean people can't cool -- from natural. Core technology but think about what all the natural gas all these little -- natural gas -- scattered all over the place no pipelines or anything you. And. -- -- -- Don't ask ask. We don't know much. We don't know what the impact how much much methane leaking from the -- Production -- you know -- yet. According to New York Times. You know won't take effect on the gas -- oil up. There's two instruments. Owned by the state it could measure methane. To. How many thousands upon hundreds without. We don't know how much -- -- neatly it all depends on who you talk to as to how much is being. And there's no -- we we used right not a 10000. Your -- where receipt. A molecule methane is 22 times more powerful -- -- I'll. Carbon dioxide in terms of natural gas in terms of greenhouse gas. Hundred years. -- -- behind it. It could be quite -- Twenty -- metric. The whole ball game it's not a seventy to talk. If -- want to say there's no real this region -- 120. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- We have to start measuring -- that maybe. Natural gas -- most considering that greenhouse gas we should be most concerned about. -- to watch him an investment was mentioned -- here. Gonna cost hundreds of billions of dollars to build. People's natural gas to bring twelve -- a bridge -- More plants -- you know I don't. -- -- -- -- -- -- In any shortfall in -- partner in their natural gas she'll get by the way. We're into LNG market. New all natural gas round. The world 40% of its own hiring and -- A market we don't want to get into. The natural. National energy technology that they do great work -- here in Pittsburgh and -- and outlined in -- still haunts me it'll be the first time in his street. That our electrical supplies and could be dictated by the whims of foreign producers. Think about that sentence when you think about electricity. Price may have. Asked me if -- Those who aren't going -- aren't priced in a natural gas. For -- in for industry. And the price of electricity. -- up or not. Natural gas -- kicked up the price of electric generation of electric no question -- Not just gonna -- in treatment for consumers. I'm going not well that's manufacturing god -- your real people's jaw. And lock it from the seniors want one correlation but -- and you would have. We don't talk to a lot of manufacturers including CEO it -- chemical that's one of the reasons that happened. -- a price of natural gas. Nuclear power plants. -- -- that's right sort of started my career working on helping clean nuclear power plants back and Evans. I'm hopeful believer in nuclear power play I get a shot tonight can start building a -- department of -- Well look and appealed to. They were -- ourselves that we think we're gonna have them on Martin nuclear power to solve our problems. In the world passed that I quote chipped -- -- -- I can only speak from my personal experiences and day. We had wanted to major nuclear engineering department in the United States in the world. I headed to an appointment in that department was just a geologist what's so we are just the nuclear engineering nobody knew. I was here anyway. In that department. They admit it Joseph Paladino who was the chairman of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. They have for -- who was a member of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. And -- which -- who was it -- listened to admiral Rick Covert founder of the nuclear navy. -- members of that apartment. -- -- -- They weren't replaced. In fact. At Penn State we -- them most. The longest continuously running nuclear power plant. On any campus. -- We don't happen nuclear engineering department anymore. It was folded into McCain. Think it's about nuclear engineers right -- a -- -- lot. Potomac news and forget. -- -- part of that game. You know your first -- to hold one on top. Two races. On top -- -- -- got three HR game to -- call wanna natural. You got it I wouldn't you re argument. That is my remarks and -- hang around asking questions if anybody. Yes committee members from the -- conference -- -- to submit questions. We're going to use the rest of -- morning to address to our panel before we began just what's thanks again for their fall presentation. Again if you don't mind without question on greenhouse gas regulation. And like to get you or. Assessment of flow weather's. Better for congress to regulate greenhouse gases or whether it's been -- EPA and reasons for that. -- -- again. Not really but -- I'll give it a try. I'm sort of I'm sort of on the side that congress ought to do this and the reason I'm on this side is that is that congress ought to represent. And I realized sometimes -- and polarized and author of president. The general basis -- which the United States economy works. And I don't think it ought to leave to an administration. This particular. Regulation because this particular regulation. Has two sides to it. Those who believe in the science emotional -- in the -- I think congress has got to grapple with that and got to deal with. And I don't know early disagreed. What Jim and -- day. I think the -- the position is we wholeheartedly support comprehensive energy and climate legislation we feel. As we transition to this clean energy economy. It's the most stable way to generate jobs and generate Smart investment power -- That being said as we've heard here today there's not any real active movement. On on the legislative front. The age in the has the Clean Air Act amendments of 99 which required to do certain things that statutory -- -- Until such time that this comprehensive. Legislation a -- We're somewhat -- of implementing the act you know as it is was written in 1990 so we will continue to do. Things like the transport -- the utility Mac and the Taylor rule in January and continued on that path but. That -- administration with whole heartedly support. Some type of comprehensive energy and climate let us. And a requirement from a from a Supreme Court decision from a couple of years ago also that. Compels action corrupt but correct as a -- I -- I just am more for congress. Taking the lead on that as we knew we -- them to do something -- do something. Mike Morris made the comment. That I quoted earlier. Believing that the administration is is moving towards. Pushing cooperative. Equation do you you would you room. Is the administration and right. Is it EPA and rightful honey respond. And we and we know -- -- -- that sort of touchy Feely kind of question intimately like enough. And and the questions what where -- he he would think about colon and what does the administration the only thing. I think in terms of EPA's approach. You can look at the recently proposed industrial -- where we kept all fuels there. Viable on the table there -- regulations for all the regulations for natural gas regulation -- -- In any type of regulatory effort we look at all sides of the point to make sure. That we are keeping a level playing field and -- these regulations forward I don't think the -- the -- position either pro or anti apple pro or -- Net natural gas it's just we implement the statute as it's written and -- in Ford in those directions. In this upcoming utility Mac yes that is focused on -- envelope because we did not list natural gas fired power plants in 2000 and when that decision was made but I think the agency is looking for a divorce and a great fuel mix as we move forward. Primarily to provide cost effective electricity and reasonable gas prices across the board so that's -- -- You can speak a bit more about -- -- didn't include natural gas a few years ago wind blows. Natural gas -- -- what was the thinking man in the original report to. Congress in 1998 be the most. Serious hazardous air pollution that was identified was Mercury was that -- of greatest concern. And in general and natural gas you don't find. A high degree of Mercury so it was focused on Cole and then of course there -- there are some non Mercury metals that are emitted. From from or combustion so that those sources -- as well. And mr. -- Department of Energy. And its view on on coal. And I'm on it natural gas for -- -- get natural gas. Look -- the budget that then I'm monitoring and and and spending is 3.4 billion dollars. Of public money. In support of technologies. To make -- cool coal cleaner burning fuel and 400 million dollars a year. Of our and he applied and basic. To research facilities including any -- And the other national labs and universities around the United States for the purpose of developing products and technologies that that will make coal cleaner. So I I can't you know people may feel that there's a biased one way or the other but it certainly in my -- -- bias and -- -- coal. Renewable energy is -- a tremendous amount of press a lot of popularity and that and popular media. -- -- -- you have. Some thoughts on the potential penetration that renewable could play. In the overall generation mix and what's an appropriate level of penetration for a new -- given the and demands on electricity supply vigilance. Like I have I -- fought. And that is for every MW of renewable. There has to be megawatt of capacity. Mean -- -- for energy that's good news if if if renewables are working on shines and wind blows that's great. You can have MW of renewable but when that doesn't happen you need another megawatts somewhere there's gonna work in places so -- base load continuing. I the United States -- -- the United Nations do exactly what it did in 20023 and four which is gonna do absolutely nothing. In terms of building power plants. Until all of a sudden we have an emergency because the economy is picked up. The capacity factors now are high the margin goes away again we need to build power plants in order to support. The demand. And the only thing you can get built you know I think you can -- -- it is going to be gas rushed against the price of gas to go back up and we'll stop building get frustrated asked again. Somehow or other in the United States it's either all over here or all -- you are in the universal and and I think a good comprehensive. Energy how he might do that but I don't -- It idea I I agree everything gas and everything -- -- here. Guess you'll. Be until you go walk along one of these regional -- -- -- -- wind -- And you make it again if you -- -- -- the -- those who else. But up. -- whole issue is to me to competent -- one is reliability. And Demi. The day -- that -- did -- wind is least likely to blow -- the hottest day of the year. That's what's hot. You're -- have a lot of not to have a lot of windows days he would not have backed out. And at -- going to be natural gas de facto war any war -- who -- In Colorado College days who. So you have to have I'm gonna back. On the -- -- Meaning if you look at a map where. The windy is in -- a loaded. And you -- -- -- between North Dakota. In New York. In Philadelphia. Can you imagine how many lawsuits -- there image I -- to try to -- a transmission line. How many years it -- There's a lot of lawsuit between North Dakota. -- Pennsylvania border. Doctor Willett junior -- they talked a bit about it the -- of -- rules and an implementation and interest it and if you get a little bit more detail about. How EPA. -- about when these rules are gonna take place and then coming industry can respond and went actresses. Is CPA taking to help the industry be able to at the time its investment so we can -- and both meet the requirements and also. A plan there and -- capital investment. That. That's a perfectly fair question all of these regulations we -- -- about. Have have public notice and comment records after the proposals come out. And as -- -- and the transport rule the agency put forward a preferred approach. And then we have to alternative approach and it -- this. Open dialogue process -- the affected stakeholders -- -- regulated and -- out there. Come back to the agency and say yes we can do this -- this time -- but we cannot do this and that conference that's out there and and we have to try to do. Come to some happy medium. To to affect the change in the final rule in the Mac program. There's not a whole lot of flexibility but Leo are aware going in to that rule Mike -- That the three year compliance window even before year compliance windows. Has some potential ramifications for the power sector and that -- trying to. To deal with that between now and march and will probably have different preferred approaches and options and that -- from which to -- up. But -- some of the equipment is retro fitted. There -- different control levels for some pollutants and for others and and depending on when those -- and how -- the -- the timing worked on those and being able to to effectively use those aspects of this control. In developing any of these regulations. We look at multiple -- -- control we look at co benefit analyses. For example and those -- 31 states and the District of Columbia. There they're going to be -- going to hand as part of the transport rule well we are looking at that utility back. And the ability of -- to reduce their suggestions to me that potentially realignment we account. What's already. Been on the books in the transport. And we level -- -- cost and we spread them out we don't count the cost twice you know count the benefits plus. That we tend attempt to look at all that and that part of the integrated vision of transitioning to a clean energy economy. -- a look at how the all the pieces generally go together. So that we do prevent bad assets and we've maximized. The financial investment each entity comply with the world. Mr. wood during your presentation you talked a bit about. About it future vision of -- technology that sort of related the award that was made last week. I wonder if you can talk of a little bit more about. -- Lulu how how the economics -- beginning to work out you have a sense both of the timing for the technology and also the economics. And we've heard in some instances that that could be 13. Energy penalty in order to. To use carbon captured. Technologies. What's -- what's the latest understanding that you have on on the technology. So with let's consider that. What's being deployed today in the projects I mentioned as well most of projects that are being deployed privately. On the IDC seaside. We know the quality of those. Plants that are using oxygen are using their separation unit and we know that the capture of two requires compression. In -- to questions -- -- to underground. -- -- -- -- A liquid like substance about 18100 pounds. And it will need to be super critical to be put underground in fact most of the studies at the elite has done looks at super critical -- -- to understand what happens. When it's a question. That that penalty those penalties was too large penalties the air separation unit and -- and the CPUs. At the -- look clean up unit and pressures it is about 30% of our parents and -- it's terrible the economics horrible. But the things that DOE is trying to sponsor. In universities and in laboratories are things that should drive that cost -- membranes for example -- can separate -- to without compression penalty. And compressor technologies that can compress CO2 at half or even possibly more than half. A savings in in the in the parasitic -- Our understudy today they're better than bench scale -- -- some of them -- almost ready to deploy. So second generation and third generation deployment of these technologies and that's when he fifteen to 20/20 area should give us. Better economics that we have now in fact. In the modeling that we do. It looks like those economics we'll actually be economics -- of these systems will be able to be. In inserts they'll actually be able to -- to be deployed and serve so. It's gonna take time and it's gonna take more money and it's going to take health ministry but I think we can get there and I think we can get units would be respectable. And and can burn coal and can use coal. That's what it takes some time and yours as well. Can you tell me a bit about the -- bit about the White House -- he has task force than what you hope that will be accomplished. The my knowledge that this is a little bit limited although on -- mark Hauspie from the office of fossil and he was one co -- So he he did -- -- of that with us but. My understanding -- report is -- reporters and OMB it's being reviewed by OMB and hopefully it'll be out this month. That's -- system with the agencies. Understand. Do you think and professor -- touched on this a bit -- Your thoughts on -- Wallace comes forward and doctor Whelan. Is the US loosening. Engineering capabilities. To view design build and operate cleaner coal power plants. In the future. -- industry. Well I don't. Both these guys aren't better -- it. I don't think that that's -- charity case has much where nuclear power I think that they're doing that you -- expertise unionized age. But I will say that these other countries are moving forward with these clean coal technology. While that we. Moving forward and it all caught up to the fish and I think he's really -- I mean national council years ago indicated we get like 50000. Megawatts behind -- in our our. More efficient here in I mean. It was sort of was to open. So I think -- I that's one area where Iraq. -- do you agree with one of the speakers. Program but it. Really important. This direction. To make it yet. China will make a difference in greenhouse gas emissions by. Will -- your thoughts on engineering capability. Sure we we have heard. That those suggestions that the the infrastructure it is. Is no longer available domestically that it's all gone off toward China and India and other location. It's part of this integrated strategy that the agencies putting forward for these regulations. We are actively. Seeking labor construction material vendor type information. To make sure that whatever we would require and the utility -- -- in some of the subsequent rules that the infrastructure is there. To to -- -- -- In the event when these analyses are done if if the -- not there but obviously would. You know how -- but implement -- rule -- -- -- working closely with other federal agencies and with. Outside vendors -- to try to totally understand. What is available what is not available domestically. -- between now 2015 points sixteen and all these rules will come into play. Mr. what you thought. Well I have couple things that. So you first law because I -- on board of trustees of the university that's a technical university for the most part. By the applications. That they did that come in and year after year and 2000 -- -- we've seen tremendous uptake in interest on the part of I students that want to pursue engineering. So I think that's a good sign. Part of it is -- -- fact that people thought they were personal financial and -- -- -- -- and -- it's such -- -- -- anymore for for -- -- a lot of uptick in and I think that's very good in the office we have a number of a young people that are in either as interns or first or second -- people. Many of them from Penn State very well educated understand the business are learning something about how government works so they're gonna take this. This experience and go on the outside and I think that -- -- That or -- well. Yeah identity. The retirement rate from businesses that manufacture and design products work. The energy industry. The retirement rate is up. It's up in utilities. Mike -- Would would be -- tell you this better than -- but -- had a -- -- off not -- long ago so the company does have very good numbers this year it's all because of the recession. So there is a problem there in terms of how -- -- re populate the the power business I would say. The economics of the IPPs is not good. How that might play into a future. People being interest that are non interest in the power business that's that's -- problem. But I think the tightly the entry level looks good if the exit looks higher -- -- catch up -- -- so. I don't agree that there is much left of infrastructure in the United States to manufacture. I have some experience in that area just before I left the company knows what's become of the week we made -- has shut down our Erie Pennsylvania -- And we did it because it was not economical to manufacture it. BMW when I was with the NW we shut them apparently works -- -- still operates at miss and Mississippi and operate that -- works. But I I don't think that thought we were manufactured anything more in the United States everything's offshore. And all of the new stuff if it ever gets built we built -- -- because chief. It's cheaper and and and equality just as good -- would have been the US. There is there is infrastructure in the US to do what we've called service does the F mark that there's plenty of the manufacturers -- what to do that and if we. Get together on this on a policy. And and Begin to promote clean coal in the ways I think we can do this we will see a rebirth in that industry because. Those kinds of technologies will naturally grown in the United States if there's a market. And looking forward to city of 20/20 2030. What sorts of performance we usually expect coal fired power plants to be able to look to to demonstrate what is -- coal fired power -- have to look like in order to be viable and in them in the market. Point when he when he Saturday. -- -- Near 00 -- zero arm. Everything not only. -- 01 and look low water usage. And I think we'll get -- And efficiencies. Probably in the mid forties now. Well -- would hope what you have with the compression but yeah it would be nice to be in mid forties. -- -- even on the even on the on the issue you brought up earlier -- hypocrite. I'm waiting for the industry to give us to give themselves the materials that they're -- to need to go to 1111150. Because those materials are available parts of the world China's building high temperature single -- units or why we will do here. But it don't have -- Nepa process. Is near zero. Economically achievable and and one issue that comes into play of course is that -- -- So much of -- and some shall have power generation. Is. Regulated by public utility commissions have have to look out for. Affordability issues. Is zero. Achievable economically anything. I think in the time frame you've outlined -- 22 point 15 point there yes. It is -- -- I guess again I think that they. Did we need to think about the world natural yeah it's been so in -- -- at eleven point. I mean I mean -- a lot of these methane -- Moral thing. Significant wouldn't have any idea how much -- is being released. Through his part price apps out there do you want -- all -- shale gas well hyping the natural gas and you. We have the numbers. It has level plane you know -- -- -- natural gas. -- happens you have to admit natural gas if you want to get to carbon capture. You wanna get to the dispute to lose it. -- talking about you have to you have to put carbon capture or natural gas in -- natural gas plant scattered everywhere. You're not gonna get that -- Gonna reach. If your -- Even here. And while this conferences focused on -- -- natural gas does have -- -- put. And full house and we've moved. The nature. Of the gas effect that it doesn't. That would fall wondering what that means. Vehicle. It we're kind of mind RP card and on the -- I mean again I go back to me. -- -- sign -- for them. Greenhouse. Focused on more greenhouse there's no way you can argue that it natural gas is fifty -- nuclear core. It can't do. And -- -- technically accurate. Those -- the questions that we and for our -- this morning if you would please join me again and thanking. Jim -- from the.